Hilary Benn Interview

As promised here is the interview I have done with Hilary Benn from this week's Tribune. Hilary had some very strong words to say about the Iraq war and the anti-war movement, creating a spin-off story, which is also included.

Benn attack angers anti-war movement
HILARY BENN, the bookies' favourite to win Labour's forthcoming deputy leadership election, has attacked the anti-war movement in an unrepentant defence of his support for the invasion of Iraq.
Mr Benn has won support among Blairites and secured strong backing from the centre and left. Veteran left-winger Dennis Skinner is one of his supporters.
In an interview in this week's Tribune, Mr Benn, the Secretary of State for International Development, says that, unlike many Labour MPs, he does not regret voting to support the Iraq war. "Do I regret voting for the war? No, I do not. Do I wish Saddam Hussein were still in power? No, I do not. I think that is the view of the vast majority of Iraqi people."
Mr Benn, whose father, Tony, is president of the Stop the War Coalition, is sharply critical, of it.
"I respect those who took a different view. But I find it very hard to understand why those voices are not heard more loudly opposing the sectarian butchers and the suicide bombers, and supporting an elected Iraqi Government. You can have opposed the military action, but you can also recognise why you should support the Iraqi Government."
His comments will anger many MPs and trade unionists. Peter Kilfoyle, the Labour MP who moved the amendment in the House of Commons opposing the invasion of Iraq in March 2003 said: "His comments are typical of those who want to rewrite the Iraq war. The war was nothing to do with wanting to get rid of Saddam Hussein. It was about weapons of mass destruction. I don't think it befits a minister dealing with international matters to be promoting illegal regime change. It was the invasion which gave rise to a Pandora's box. This was predicted before the war and this is exactly what happened - creating instability inside and outside Iraq."
Tony Woodley, general secretary of the Transport and General Workers' Union, was also critical. "The invasion and occupation of Iraq has been a disaster beyond even what those of us in the anti-war movement imagined. Labour desperately needs a degree of humility from those of its representatives who voted for this catastrophe if we are to move
forward."
A spokesperson for the Stop the War Coalition said: "The Iraqi Government is a puppet government - one that owes its survival purely to the occupation. And it is the occupation which is fuelling the violence in Iraq."

Finally, is it Benn for deputy?
MOST Cabinet ministers, particularly contenders for the deputy leadership of the Labour Party, seem to be permanently surrounded by a phalanx of fawning advisors. So it was a surprise to meet Hilary Benn alone in the lobby of the House of Commons and with a rucksack slung over his shoulder, particularly as he had come direct from a select committee grilling.
He then decided that our conversation should be conducted in an alcove adjoining a busy walkway. While it would have been nice to have had a cup of tea - it would have been nothing stronger, since Benn is teetotal like his father, Tony - I couldn't decide if the impromptu venue showed evidence of disorganisation or supreme
confidence.
Benn's challenge to become deputy leader has added to a crowded field. He once famously described himself as a "Benn not a Bennite" and is regarded as a hardworking, technocratic Secretary of State for International Development and a dependable Blairite, but not from the cadre of ultra-Blairites.
In some ways, he is similar to one of his deputy leadership rivals, Trade and Industry Secretary Alan Johnson. Perhaps partly because of his famous father, Benn has a broad appeal across the Labour Party and has already attracted some left-wing support, including from veteran Bolsover MP Dennis Skinner.
So why does he want to replace John Prescott? "We need a deputy leader who will provide honest advice and leadership. We need a deputy leader who will provide a voice for the party at the highest level of government. We need a deputy leader who is good at working with other people in a team.
"We need the party to move forward, internationally and nationally. I think what is uppermost in people's minds is who is going to give us the chance of winning the next general election. That is partially about reminding people what a difference the Labour Government has made, and partially that there are some big challenges: climate change, international security, keeping the British economy successful. We have got to demonstrate we have the capacity to guide people through them."
One characteristic invariably ascribed to Benn is his innate niceness. This is evident when I attempt to probe him on the qualities that distinguish him from other deputy leadership candidates. He prefers not to reply, insisting: "That is for other people to answer". Instead, he chooses to praise his rivals: "If you look at the field of potential candidates, you have got a lot of ability. I respect Jon Cruddas and the work he has done, particularly in campaigning against the BNP. I respect
Harriet Harman for what she has done in campaigning for childcare. There's Alan Johnson's background in the trade union movement and success in his ministerial jobs, and Peter
Hain's record as a campaigner and what he is doing on the Northern Ireland peace process.
"I think that reflects on the strength of the party. This election is a real opportunity to
have a discussion about the future direction of the party and the country, and then make a choice."
Jon Cruddas has attempted to re-write the job description by arguing that, while Labour's deputy leader should be in the Cabinet, he or she should not become Deputy Prime Minister. The job of deputy leader should be a primarily campaigning one and the post-holder should not have a ministerial portfolio. It is a proposal with which Benn profoundly disagrees. "To be very clear, I am campaigning for the post of deputy leader. I am not campaigning to be chair of the party. It is for the Prime Minister, and I hope and believe that will be Gordon Brown, to take that decision. I want to do a Cabinet job."
One criticism that has been levelled against Benn is that trying to identify his ideological beliefs is as difficult as nailing jelly to a wall. So, to borrow a phrase coined by Tony Blair, what is his irreducible core? "I am Labour through and through. I was born and brought up in this party. I shall die in the party. I believe absolutely passionately in the power of Labour politics to change things. I believe in the power of social justice to do things better, whether that is in the poorest parts of my constituency in Leeds or fighting global poverty.
"I am a great believer in the power of education to change people's lives. It is no accident that the trade union banners of the 19th century said: `Agitate, educate, organise'. Apart from the nurturing of your parents, education is the single biggest most important start in life. It opens a window on the world and gives us confidence and aspiration. I am a passionate supporter of comprehensive reform, because it laid to rest this nonsensical idea that you could label a failure at 11. Rubbish."
If implemented, Hayden Phillips' report on the funding of political parties could break the historic link between Labour and the unions. Before becoming a special advisor to then Education Secretary David Blunkett and then his election as an MP in 1999, Benn worked as a union official for 22 years. He is horrified by threats to the link.
"I am absolutely firmly wedded to the union link. It is part of our character. There is that wonderful phrase in the 1906 manifesto: `The House of Commons is meant to be the people's house, but the people are not there.' The unions and Labour pioneers changed that forever by getting representation. Trade unions are just as important in the workplace today as they ever have been."
Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, a number of senior Labour politicians have conceded that mistakes were made and have withdrawn their support for the war. Benn is emphatically not one of them. "Do I regret voting for the war? No, I do not. Do I wish that Saddam Hussein was still in power? No, I do not. I think that is the view of the vast majority of Iraqi people. I have been to Iraq four times. When you meet politicians who put their lives on the line, it is really quite humbling."
He is also critical of the anti-war movement. "I respect those who took a different view. But I find it very hard too understand why those voices are not heard more loudly opposing the sectarian butchers and the suicide bombers, and supporting an elected Iraqi Government. You can have opposed the military action, but you can also recognise why you should support the Iraqi Government."
While Benn has won plaudits for loyalty, it has been suggested that he takes this to undue extremes on occasion. For instance, last summer it was widely reported that he was one of several Cabinet ministers who were angry that Tony Blair had failed to support an immediate ceasefire in the Lebanon. Yet publicly, he backs his leader's stance to the hilt.
"What the Prime Minister said was, of course we want the fighting to stop. On August 1, we went to the European Union foreign affairs council, where we supported an immediate cessation of hostilities. If that is not a ceasefire, I don't know what is. Also, the PM said we had to do it on the basis of what would work. Subsequently, he was proved right, as you had to get all the parties to sign up to the peace process."
Benn was keen to do this interview to respond to Tribune's criticism of the Government's international development policies, in particular the enthusiasm for helping developing nations to privatise their utilities, especially water. This was initially conducted through Britain's conditionality policy. In effect, it was aid with strings attached. A country had to embrace privatisation in return for British help. To be fair, Benn dropped the policy in the spring of 2005 after sustained pressure. Problems remain, but he wants to put the record straight. "I changed our policy on conditionality. I wasn't dragged kicking and screaming to it by anyone. For me, it is a question of what is the right kind of conditionality. I have never yet met anyone who says: just hand over the money, come what may."
Earlier criticism clearly hurt. I look up from scribbling notes to find the Secretary of State's face just inches from mine. Doubtless his desire is to stress his case, rather than to intimidate. "On privatisation, it is simply not the case that I wake up in the morning and think, what can I  do to privatise the world's water supply. Ninety five per cent of our spending goes on public provision of water."
Yet while Britain may have dispensed with conditionality, the World Bank still demands that countries privatise services in return for aid. If Britain is then asked for further help, Benn takes a laissez faire approach. This is what happened when Sierra Leone, the world's poorest nation, asked for assistance with its privatisation plans.
Benn defends his position: "Where a developing country takes the decision that they want to privatise their water supply, it is not my job to say: `I am your former colonial master and I know better than you.' I don't think that is our place and I hope no one is arguing that."
Further controversy has surrounded the PPIAF branch of the World Bank, which helps developing countries with privatisation programmes and is predominantly funded by Britain. While it has been sharply criticised by some development charities, Benn is a staunch defender. "I don't think it is controversial at all. In Afghanistan, the PPIAF has helped reform the regulatory system relating to mobile telephones. Is that a scandal? No. How do economies develop? One of the things they need is good communication links. With investment come jobs. I think this is a really virtuous circle."
Since Labour came to power, massive sums have been spent on international development. Much of this aid is channelled through multilateral or bilateral agreements or through international agencies and there remains concern that Britain does not always know where or how its money is being spent. Some of the programmes run by the United Nations Population Fund have been particularly contentious. In the past, these have been involved in coercive population control strategies in countries as diverse as Peru, Vietnam and Mexico.
Britain is a major funder of UNFPA, which is currently involved in promoting voluntarism in China as an alternative to the notorious "one child" policy. Its critics describe UNFPA's efforts as ineffectual at best and at worst turning a blind eye to human rights abuses.
Benn rejects these criticisms and is vigorous in his defence of the organisation. "What UNFPA is doing in China is trying to demonstrate to the Chinese that there are ways of controlling the population which don't involve the policies that the Chinese Government has been pursuing. This means giving people access to contraception and choice. I am 100 per cent behind them in doing that."


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Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#1)

Good interview Barckley. Reveals what I've previously suspected, Hilary Benn is polite, decent but quite right-wing.  

His defence of the Iraq war is pretty hardline - even Blair seems to be more circumspect these days.

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#2)

Excellent interview. Leaning towards supporting Benn at the moment - but I do think we need to listen to Cruddas on party reforms/rebuilding.

Maybe Benn for Deputy and Cruddas for Chair could be interesting?

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#9)

But we can't vote for the party chair, which is rather the point!

Benn will I'm sure stay a minister for as long as he wants, and will continue to be able to do good work. The question is what new thinking, in terms of politics or party organisation, will he bring to the job of deputy leader?

Cruddas will bring new thinking which we desperately need.

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#3)

"I respect those who took a different view. But I find it very hard to understand why those voices are not heard more loudly opposing the sectarian butchers and the suicide bombers, and supporting an elected Iraqi Government. You can have opposed the military action, but you can also recognise why you should support the Iraqi Government."

I think this is an extraordinary comment. The occupation is deeply unpopular and he's effectively trying to guilt-trip the critics into supporting that occupation. He seems to have emerged as the Government's most trenchant supporter of the occupation and war. As such, and as a member of the government that ordered that war, he has a lot to answer for.

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#4)

What does he say that's untrue?

I can't see a single thing in that quote that any reasonable person could disagree with.

  • People should respect those who took a different view on the war
  • People should loudly oppose, as he puts it "sectarian butchers" and the suicide bombers
  • People should support any democratically elected  government against those who use violence to seek to destabalise it

Which of his three points do you disagree with? Shouldn't we respect others' views? Should we support suicide bombers? Should we not support democratically elected governments under threat?

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#5)

My problem is that it's a dog whistle. It's implying that those who oppose the occupation support suicide bombers. I find that insulting.

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#6)

I think it's imlplying that those who are loud in their opposition to the occupation and virtually silent on the actions of suicide bombers are sympathetic to suicide bombers.

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#7)

"Do I regret voting for the war? No, I do not. [...] I think that is the view of the vast majority of Iraqi people."

So the vast majority of Iraqis voted for the war and don't regret doing so? Shurely shome mishtake...

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#8)

How do we determine the views of the 655000 dead Iraqis?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1892888,00.html

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#11)

They're probably pretty pissed off with the militants that killed them.

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#12)

Where's YouGov when you need them.

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#19)

Possibly more conclusive that an opinion poll was the actual poll in 2005, where the turnout was reported as high (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4544928.stm) suggesting to me at least the new constitutional arrangements have widespread support. Unfortunately, as far as I am aware, there is no comparative independent data for the time before the invasion.

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#14)

Because none of them were killed by coalition forces, of course.

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#10)

Interesting that you're little "[...]" changes the meaning of that sentence entirely.

The actual quote is "Do I regret voting for the war? No, I do not. Do I wish Saddam Hussein were still in power? No, I do not. I think that is the view of the vast majority of Iraqi people."

He's clearly saying that the vast majority of Iraqi people do not wish that Saddam Hussein was still in power.

What a pathetic attempt at misquoting. You're an embarrassment to the anti-war movement.

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#13)

But of course, we haven't asked the Iraqi people that question either, have we? It's funny how the pro-war movement always co-opts the "vast majority" of Iraqis to support its unforgivable follies.

And by the way, if you're going to call me "pathetic" and an "embarrassment", I can play that game too: "What a pathetic attempt at correct grammar. You're an embarrassment to the English language." Not very nice? No, perhaps not. Play nicely. As your username suggests, if you're in a glass house...

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#15)

Maybe personal attacks do distract from an otherwise interesting discussion.

The Iraq war does tend to get discussed in stark terms. I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to have opposed going to war, just as it was reasonable for some people to believe it was the right thing to do.

However, if we make this one issue a dealbreaker - if this becomes the touchstone for every internal decision made in this party - then we will lose the next general election and find ourselves in opposition for a long time indeed. I was too young to remember Wilson, I grew up in the eighties hearing about the Falklands, the miners and printers, mass unemployment, riots...  and in 1992, when we lost that election, I cried.

We don't need to be there again if we have enough respect for each other to recognise that it's OK to have a few differences of opinion.

We are the good guys and if we don't pull together, we'll leave this country to the Tories. If political parties were people, the Conservative  Party would be a psychopath with no sense of shame or guilt for his misdeeds.

Whenever the next Tory Government happens, one thing will be different from before. They no longer believe they are the natural party of government. They are no longer taking the British people for granted as they once did.

So four or five years under the Tories will engender the most radical policies we have yet seen. If you want to see education services delivered by voucher, or the legalisation of foxhunting, or insurance schemes for health, or a flat tax regime - then carry on letting the Iraq War gravitate to the centre of every conversation we have about the future of the party, because the Tories won't wait for a second term to implement these policies.

The Iraq War is the single event that has had most impact on the manner and timetable of Tony Blair's departure from office. It will be the thing for what his premiership will be remembered. Is that not enough for natural Labour supporters to accept in order to move on? What more do you want, a cull of every MP or member who supported his position at the time? Do you want us to withdraw our troops and leave the place worse than it is now?

This isn't really directed at any single writer on these pages - just getting some stuff of my chest.

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#17)

You're right Alex.

I simply feel that for this site to work properly, we have to debate honestly and not engage in point scoring by knowingly misrepresenting peoples' views. That kind of thing undermines everything that genuine debate and this site should be about.

That's what got me worked up - not the Iraq war.

Probably shouldn't have used word like pathetic and embarrassment though. Apologies to The Ghost of JD Bernal.

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#16)

Can I take your silence on the subject to be an admission that you were deliberately and publicly misrepresenting Hilary Benn's views and can I also presume that you did this simply because you don't agree with him?

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#20)

Apology accepted, thank you. I wasn't deliberately trying to misrepresent, it was just supposed to be a humourous way of making a serious point -- that I get annoyed when the pro-war movement claims the Iraqi people's support like that.

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#18)

Alex - nicely put, however there is one area regarding Iraq that should not be put to one side - how we can best help to secure its stable future.  After all, we are responsible for much of the mess it has become.

I don't have the answers.  I'm pretty sure that a total pull out now would result in full scale civil war, if not a wider regional conflict.  But at the same time our current presence and policy is only barely keeping a lid on things.

This is what we should be debating, rather than the unfortunate series of past actions that have led us to this situation.

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#21)

I'm quite impressed by what he had to say. Nice to see a Labour MP who has the guts to say that he didn't regret voting for the war. At least he's not like his father.

I still think I'm going to vote for Harman but he has persuaded me to reconsider.

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#22)

Oh dear.  Looks like I'll be voting for John Cruddas after all.

Shame, I like Hilary - but the Iraq stuff is disingenuous and he knows it.

I suppose I could always change my view of a genuine left challenge... Jeremy or Alan anybody?

Re: Hilary Benn Interview (#23)

I've not been involved in Labour (as an activist or going to meetings) since the Iraq War. I don't know who Hillary Benn was talking about, but I was never anti-war, I support what we are doing in Afghanistan and what happened in Sierra Leone and in Serbia.

The difference with Iraq was that it was an invasion, an illegal invasion to topple another country's government. In my mind the parallel is not for example, the liberation of France in 1944, it is the invasion of Poland in 1939. It's that serious to me. I'm not saying that Blair or Bush are Nazis, I'm saying it was a purely agressive (not defensive), aquisitional and illegal war.

I must be one of the few people who actually belived the weapons inspectors at the time, I didn't think Iraq had those weapons. But we know now that what they were doing was irrelavant. Bush decided years before to invade Iraq, and Blair decided to stand with Bush (in the British national interest). The facts-on-the-ground were either irrelevant or could be made up (dodgy dossiers).

I feel it is still important today because I keep hearing Labour leaders saying that we are in an internationalist party. I joined an internationalist party back in 1994 and internationalism, I feel, is part of my (black) British identity. The aftermath of the war, which was indeed predicted, and then made certain by the uselessness of American lassez-faire imperialism, confirms my belief in internationalist multi-lateralism and working within the UN.

I do not support or side with the suicide bombers, but I do understand a little of how some of them must feel. I visited the Cabinet War Rooms a few years ago and I saw, for the first time in my life a map depicting the planned Nazi invasion of Britain. Seeing those little Nazi formations over southern England sent me into a sort of quiet red mist. I started shaking a little and felt sick in my stomach. I'm quite mild mannered, and I'd never felt like that before. Thinking about it later, I realised that I wasn't thinking about Nazi policies; the rage was at the idea of foreigners taking over my country. The Iraq war was specifically the USA invading Iraq. If it had been the UN, it wouldn't have been so 'foreign'. The nature of a war, I feel makes a big difference to the reaction of those you think you are liberating, and you cannot say that Saddam would still be in power today if we had stuck with the UN route.

So, for me, the reason I can't let Iraq disappear from my head, is that the princple of multi-lateralism seems to be in dispute. It is not whether we should withdraw all the troops tout-de-suite, but that we should not in principle go on illegal war adventures. We should only 'war-war' with international legitimacy. I'm thinking specifically of Iran, where I can see the same thing happening all over again.