Cruddas launches DPM bid

alexhilton Wed Sep 27, 2006 at 08:44:41 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook




Dagenham MP John Cruddas has launched his bid for the Deputy Leadership of the Labour Party in an interview with Simon Mayo on Radio Five Live. Immediately, The Guardian's Michael White commented on the Cruddas bid. Labourhome asked White, "Isn't Cruddas too much of an insider - a fixer - to represent party members as Deputy Leader". Michael White said, "It's better to have a fixer there than someone who messes things up".

tags: , (all tags)

Display: Sort:
Cruddas launches DPM bid | 45 comments (45 topical)

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#1)

by Mike Ion on Wed Sep 27, 2006 at 09:27:30 PM GMT

He is a really nice guy but... has not got a chance of winning and he knows it. However his presence will make the internal debate focus more heavily (and rightly in my view) on party processes and policy making.


Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#2)

by nickparrott on Wed Sep 27, 2006 at 09:31:50 PM GMT

Much as I hate to be picky - Jon Cruddas is specifically not bidding to be Deputy Prime Minister. He wants to be a full-time deputy leader - it's the other candidates who are after being DPM.

He outlined how he saw the role in this Guardian piece.

I agree with him - it's great to hear someone actually define the role and stand on the basis of those ideas, rather than simply viewing it as a popularity contest. I also think that we do need a deputy leader dedicated specifically to the party - the old model may have been ok in 1997 but it isn't now.

As for whether Cruddas is right for the role - he may have been the unions' liaison point at No 10 during the Labour Govt's first term (the most successful period of this govt, IMHO) but he's not really a "fixer" - he's an expert on employment policy as much as being a political operator.

He also has a fantastic track record of campaigning and involvement in the community in Dagenham (there can't be too many other CLPs whose membership has gone up over the last 18 months, for example) as well as being deeply involved in fighting the BNP around the country.

Speaking personally, I think Cruddas is by far the best candidate in the field now he's gone for it.

There's more discussion and a round up of media coverage at The Daily and some comment at Dave Hill. No doubt more to follow.


Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#3)

by mwell on Wed Sep 27, 2006 at 10:23:41 PM GMT

Very pleased to see Cruddas throw his hat in the ring.  As a backbencher, he will have far greater freedom to speak out and raise issues in the contest that otherwise might be ignored by current Government members.

I don't agree with Mike Ion that he's flying a kite without a proper chance to win - as a fresh face, solidly respected by the unions and a strong community campaigner, he's got to be an attractive choice.  His one problem will be getting the media coverage of a Hain / Harman, but I think that the more the public see him, the more he will impress.


Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#7)

by Mike Ion on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 12:08:09 AM GMT

I think he is kite flying and I think that he should get some credit for doing so - but he knows and everyone else knows that he will not win. What he can achieve however is forcing the debate to focus on the democratic deficit that still exists in the party.

Can I expose my ignorance by asking whether he will require the backing of 40+ MPs to get on the ballot paper?


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#8)

by nickparrott on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 12:14:46 AM GMT

He will require 12.5% of the PLP - i.e. 44 nominations, same as any other deputy leadership candidate.

He works closely with a number of MPs through his campaigning against the BNP, which can't hurt.

Who knows if he'll get the 44 but he actually has a better chance than some of the others who are in the running.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#9)

by Mike Ion on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 12:20:16 AM GMT

Thanks for clarifying the position. I hope (but doubt) that he will get the backing of at least 44 Labour MPs as he will - as I have already mentioned - bring a different perspective to the debate.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#15)

by nickparrott on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 01:40:05 AM GMT

There are question marks over the nominations of most candidates at this stage - Cruddas certainly won't be the only one needing to get his abacus out over the months ahead.

The only sensible thing at this stage is to wait and see what happens, but regardless of the numbers game don't underestimate the desire among Labour MPs for a change in the relationship between the front and back benches and for a more active role than simply being handed down laws to say aye or no.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#10)

by Andrea on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 12:32:40 AM GMT

He said he'll start to reveal the names of his supporters in the coming weeks.

It'll be interesting when the first names of who's backing who will start to emerge


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#4)

by Glass House on Wed Sep 27, 2006 at 11:14:38 PM GMT

He wont win and I found him quite annoying during his interview with the BBC


Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#5)

by Anonymous on Wed Sep 27, 2006 at 11:47:01 PM GMT

Can you find any way of debating policies glass house?  all you seem able to do is call people names, or label them "liars", "crazy", "annoying" or "cranks".  It's getting a bit much - do you need some coffee or something?


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#6)

by nickparrott on Wed Sep 27, 2006 at 11:51:36 PM GMT

Ironically, this seems to be a clear case of people throwing stones when in a Glass House...


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#11)

by Glass House on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 06:13:29 AM GMT

Ironically, the "liar" thread was a policy thread about tuiton fees (I stand by the liar comment btw)

As for the other stuff - the "crazy left winger" comment was a generalisation that I maybe shouldn't have used.

The "crank" and "annoying" comments were simply my impressions of a couple of MPs. Politics is about more than policy (for example, we hear a lot about Brown's inability to appeal to the electorate) - I think I have as much right as anyone to express an opinion on people who put themselves forward as candidates for election in my party.

Why on Earth shouldn't I say that I found Cruddas annoying?


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#16)

by alexhilton on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 11:15:07 AM GMT

Might be helpful to tell us why you found him annoying otherwise it's a bit subjective


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#24)

by Anonymous on Sun Oct 01, 2006 at 02:30:25 AM GMT

Glass House won't win any arguments and I find him quite annoying on this website


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#12)

by Paul on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 02:35:42 PM GMT

I have nothing against Cruddas but I am at a loss to understand how having a deputy leader who did not carry the authority of Deputy Prime Minister would give the party a bigger say in Government.  It also seems to me to be an implicit and unfair criticism of John Prescott who, in very difficult circumstances, has actually managed to represent the view of mainstream party members within government quite well.


Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#13)

by Anonymous on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 01:31:19 AM GMT

MP's are in theory meant  to know whats happening in their own constituencys...... and they should take that with them to government. Except they don't (hornsey and wood green, lost 20,000 majority, nuff said).

The DPM role (if we are to believe the hype) is very strenuou and requires massive focus remain on westminster - excatly where cruddas believes it shouldn't be.
He doesn't believe the deputy leader should be in government - but in the poilitical cabinet meetings (grey area not sure how its going to work yet).

It is taking the concerns of the party not into government (where decsions have already been taken) but into policy meetings and forums where the views are shaped that should be the most effective way forwards.

W

W


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#14)

by nickparrott on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 01:33:41 AM GMT

Cruddas specifically said in his article:

This is no criticism of Prescott - he has done the party's heavy lifting with strength and dignity for over a decade. It is the office that has outlived its usefulness.

It was right at the time but I don't think it is any more, not least because of the urgent need to focus on making the labour movement a stronger, cohesive campaigning force.

A Deputy PM with departmental duties focuses on their government role, answering to the PM, civil servants, stakeholders etc whereas the party has no-one directly focused on and answerable to us.

It's also inevitable that the Deputy PM becomes part of the machinery of govt, whereas we need someone with broader perspective - that's not a criticism of Prescott so much as an observation on the system.

The problem of institutional capture is a risk in any long serving government, but it would be good to have one person in the leadership who is rooted in the labour movement and thinking about political direction, strategy and organisation, rather than bound up in the necessary work of ministerial administration.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#18)

by doctordunc on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 12:41:31 PM GMT


Presumably, Nick, that's been the theory behind the new (ish) version of Party Chair.  I know there's a lot of disatisfaction with the emergence of Party Chair as a Cabinet appointee rather than an elected official, so by turning the Deputy Leader into that role, that could partly alleviate that disatisfaction.  But I think there might be a stronger argument for giving the post of Party Chair back to the party (while giving them a seat in the Cabinet committee while in power, therefore fulfilling the sort of role Cruddas is talking about) while maintaining a Deputy Leader who deputises for the Leader (and, while in power, the Prime Minister).  I'm just thinking aloud really, but it does seem to be a convoluted way of bringing back (and strengthening) the original Party Chair role.  Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.  If it did come back, it would end up very much being in the sights of the Left (the Bevanites made a bit for party chair every year through much of the 50s, while Bennites contemplated making a stand for Deputy Leader every year in the '80s) - a popular, CLP-rooted role is understandably very appealing to the left.  

Intriguing anyway.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#27)

by nickparrott on Sun Oct 01, 2006 at 02:19:41 PM GMT

I think circumstances are a bit different now - firstly because for the first time we've actually been in government for a while, and secondly we didn't have the current model of deputy leader and deputy PM then.

In fact, Duncan, you probably know a bit more about this than I do off the top of my head - what was the position of the deputy leader/PM during the post-war era?


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#32)

by Anonymous on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 10:33:37 AM GMT

Hi Nick (this is me, but have briefly misplaced my password!)  There weren't any deputy prime ministers between Clem Attlee (deputy for Churchill during the war) and Rab Butler in the early 60s (consolation prize for not 'emerging' as leader to MacMillan).  Now I can't remember off the top of my head what happened vis-a-vis deputy leader...  Will try and remember (God I used to know all this off the top of my head - the dumbing down impact of teaching young people who don't need to know this stuff...)

Duncan


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#33)

by mwell on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 11:53:41 AM GMT

I believe that first Arthur Greenwood and then Morrison were Deputy Leader under Attlee until 1955. I've also got a feeling that Bevan was Gaitskell's deputy for a couple of years until his death...


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#35)

by nickparrott on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 01:18:46 PM GMT

Were they DPM or just DL?


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#36)

by Anonymous on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 01:55:26 PM GMT

Duncan again!

No they weren't Deputy Prime Minister - its a role that only exists from time to time.  Normally as a sop to someone or other!

But actually, it has worked reasonably well with Prezza (the first Deputy Leader to also be Deputy Prime Minister, as far as I know).  So, there's no reason why there shouldn't be a debate about the role, because it certainly isn't one that is set in stone.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#37)

by Anonymous on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 02:02:24 PM GMT

But!

While they were Deputy Leader without being Deputy Prime Minister (all DLs apart from Prezza were) they had some Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet brief - often a very senior one.  There was also a Party Chair performing a role like the one Cruddas refers to.  Which I think it Alex's point.  If Cruddas was elected Deputy Leader and John McDonnell (or some other new leader!) asked him to go to the DTI would he refuse it?

Duncan


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#41)

by nickparrott on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 09:00:47 PM GMT

I imagine that whoever the leader/deputy is they will work out the deputy's role in a collegiate way and reach a compromise, if necessary, in which that deputy's election platform is a big factor. Don't you?

As for the Party Chair, can you see that changing except through the forthcoming contest? My reading of Cruddas' pamphlet was that he intended it to be the start of the debate rather than a tablet of stone but I think he's roughly outlined the most practical course to make progress on this.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#44)

by doctordunc on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 06:52:02 PM GMT

I broadly agree Nick.  Just thinking aloud.

I suspect my choice for Deputy Leader hasn't declared yet, but I may be wrong!


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#42)

by nickparrott on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 09:18:19 PM GMT

One other thing on this that's worth bearing in mind is that the deputy leader does not actually deputise for the leader in the vice-presidential sense.

Where the leader becomes "permanently unavailable" and the party is in government the deputy leader does not automatically take over - the Cabinet elect a replacement from amongst their number.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#17)

by alexhilton on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 11:17:06 AM GMT

If he wins, Jon will do and take any post he is given - or is he telling this and any future PM that he will refuse any job other than Party Chair?


Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#19)

by Harry Perkins on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 12:46:25 PM GMT

I welcome Cruddas's hat in the ring. It will encourage a broader debate. And I am attracted by his stated intention to focus on party development etc. But I don't see him winning.

At this stage I like Hazel Blears for deputy leader.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#21)

by nickparrott on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 01:04:38 PM GMT

You can get odds of 50/1 on her at Will Hill if you think it's a good bet. ;-)

I'll be surprised if she stands, but there are bound to be a few twists and turns in this race.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#20)

by nickparrott on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 12:55:42 PM GMT

He'd have been elected on a clear mandate and I don't think any of the possible Leaders would ignore that mandate, and I'm sure that the details would be worked out without any problem.

I haven't read anywhere that he'd only accept the Party Chair in its current incarnation.

Hain and Harman are both specifically campaigning to be Deputy Prime Minister so exactly the same question applies - they'd have a mandate and I expect that the new leader would respect it, but the details would be need to be discussed and I'm sure both sides would reach a compromise that was acceptable to all if there was any difference of view.

Incidentally, of course, there are lots of MPs who have refused ministerial office that they didn't want. I don't think that's going to happen with any of the deputy leadership candidates though!


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#22)

by alexhilton on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 03:30:10 PM GMT

Is there such a thing as a clear mandate in an electoral college election such as ours? And wouldn't the shiny new PM's mandate to tell Jon what he or she wants him to do be somewhat clearer?

Again, I'm interested to know if this is the core of Jon's campaign. Would he refuse any job other than Party Chair or a new position encomassing a party liaison role?


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#26)

by nickparrott on Sun Oct 01, 2006 at 01:34:57 PM GMT

Is there such a thing as a clear mandate in an electoral college election such as ours?

Erm...winning the election?

This is a bit of an alarming suggestion - does no-one have a mandate if they're elected by the electoral college? Why not? Why do we have it, if so? Do you want to abolish it? Will the new leader not have a mandate?

And wouldn't the shiny new PM's mandate to tell Jon what he or she wants him to do be somewhat clearer?

I don't think so. Not unless they specified it in the campaign and the deputy candidates had time to respond, so we the electorate could be properly informed on the choices.

The new leader will be elected on the basis of what we want out of the new leader, not out of what we want of the deputy.

If the deputy leader candidates can't even stand on the basis of their vision of what the deputy leader role should be, I think we have to start questioning whether there should be a deputy leader at all. What would be the point?

Would he refuse any job other than Party Chair or a new position encomassing a party liaison role?

I've no idea but I think it a rather unlikely scenario. Would Hain and Harman refuse any position other than Deputy PM?

We have a long campaign ahead and the debate is only just starting - I'm sure that as it unfolds all of the candidates will develop their positions in more detail.

What I will say though, is that if we elect Hain or Harman it will be on the basis that they want to be DPM (possibly with specific responsibilities that will become clearer during the campaign) and if we elect Cruddas it will be on the basis that he wants to be a full time deputy leader.

If the new leader comes in and refuses to make Hain or Harman DPM, or insists that Cruddas does take it on, then I think people will rightly be very annoyed. It wouldn't be the right way to get the new leadership off to a good start and I don't think it's going to happen.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#28)

by laurencemarshall on Sun Oct 01, 2006 at 10:39:03 PM GMT

I'm inclined to agree with you about the mandate comment. It seems that the term mandate has been imported from the US and is bandied about without realising that most things are done in British politics without a mandate.

Nick, As for Cruddas, have you or anyone else put money down on him being elected deputy leader?


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#29)

by nickparrott on Sun Oct 01, 2006 at 11:23:44 PM GMT

Well, his odds have gone from 150/1 to 16/1 at William Hill (8/1 at Ladbrokes) in two weeks, so I'm guessing that there's a fair amount of money gone down.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#30)

by alexhilton on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 02:07:50 AM GMT

I haven't heard anything to suggest Hain and Harman are bidding to be DPM any more than Cruddas. I just think that the PM decides who does what job. DPM's only guaranteed power under our party rules is that he or she gets a seat in the Cabinet. The rules don't say which seat. I think a DL candidate's manifesto can mandate the winner to DO things - but can't mandate them to HAVE things - such as the chairmanship of the party. The PM's mandate on who has what position is pretty clear and overwhelming.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#31)

by nickparrott on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 09:39:59 AM GMT

Both Hain and Harman have said that they want to be DPM if elected DL.

Harman said she would be "running for deputy leader in a situation where that person would be deputy prime minister". Source: BBC

Can't immediately find a reference for Hain saying the same, but he certainly has done, and I can dig it out for you if you don't believe me.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#34)

by alexhilton on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 01:10:00 PM GMT

I think that may be presumption rather than aspiration. You wouldn't want to preclude a talented DL from any office of state. What if the DL would make a great Foreign Sec?

We can go around in circles but I don't believe any Deputy Leader can "bounce" and new leader into policies, internal or otherwise" to which they don't subscribe. Furthermore, Any new leader would be wise to ensure a drought of support for anyone seeking to use the DL position as an alternative powerbase in the party.

By the way, we've got a bit abstract in the course of this thread and I'm not suggesting Jon is doing any of this. Perhaps we should get him on the site to discuss his plans.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#38)

by Anonymous on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 02:23:29 PM GMT

the impression that i got was that he wanted to make the DL role more like the old Party Chairman role, a full time party position outside the government and (presumably westminster).
but i agree we should wait for something more concrete before calling him the svaiour, but it does look good, at least at the moment.

W


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#40)

by nickparrott on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 08:56:39 PM GMT

I think that may be presumption rather than aspiration.

Hain and Harman have both made it clear that they want to be DPM. I think they've both responded specifically to questions on this. Call it presumption or aspiration or whatever you like.

You wouldn't want to preclude a talented DL from any office of state. What if the DL would make a great Foreign Sec?

I don't think this is about reshuffling the Westminster pack. I want the debate to go a bit deeper than that. If someone makes a great Foreign Sec then the PM can appoint them, there isn't much point having an election campaign about that.

We can go around in circles but I don't believe any Deputy Leader can "bounce" and new leader into policies, internal or otherwise" to which they don't subscribe.

Obviously not, but the reason we have a contest with a debate is to thrash these issues out. I believe the basis on which people can be elected will speak for itself. I'd have thought that demands to be DPM are rather more likely to be problematic than a desire for a lesser role but either way I hope there is respect for the outcome of the debate and ultimately the vote.

Any new leader would be wise to ensure a drought of support for anyone seeking to use the DL position as an alternative powerbase in the party.

There are candidates who might have an eye for the top job, but I really don't think that Cruddas is one of them! Again, this is more a reason not appoint a DPM than anything else.

we've got a bit abstract in the course of this thread

We have rather - but I'm sure we have a long debate ahead on all these issues with all the candidates. I look forward to it!


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#23)

by alexhilton on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 03:31:30 PM GMT

What do readers think? Should I bid for an interview with Jon about his Deputy Leadership strategy?


Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#25)

by swatantra on Sun Oct 01, 2006 at 08:59:33 AM GMT

Sure, ask him if the DLP should be outside the Cabinet, and, how the DLP will be elected by Conference, OMOV.


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#39)

by Anonymous on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 06:21:40 PM GMT

Ask who's funding his campaign and who asked him to stand. You might get an interesting answer...


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#45)

by smiley on Wed Oct 04, 2006 at 09:51:19 AM GMT

Why? What do you think the answer is?


[ Parent ]

Re: Cruddas launches DPM bid (#43)

by alsoleeds on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 04:20:05 PM GMT

I think Interviewing Jon would be a great idea.

On the nominations front and whether he can win it, the buzz around conference was all Jon Cruddas although both Peter Hain and Harriet Harman could be seen at lots of receptions. Jon has as much chance of getting 44 nominations as anybody else with the possible exception of Hariet Harman who seems to have a strong core PLP support but not much outside that. Lots of MPs don't seem inclined to nominate at all and keep their options open so this will restrict the number of candidates.

The DLP will undoubtedly be the contest to watch and Jon is the one infusing it with some energy at the moment. The Labour Party shouldn't be about the same old choices and battles, somebody like Jon helps keep it fresh.


Cruddas launches DPM bid | 45 comments (45 topical)