Housing

gorwell Mon Jun 26, 2006 at 02:11:47 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

Housing



I live in London and it was very difficult for me to afford my own flat.  A few years ago my sister in law from Spain came here (my wife is an immigrant) and she said to the council "I am a single mum and can I have a flat" and they gave her one which in the future of course she will be able to buy under right to buy.
Do Labour voters really think that is fair when people who work have to do struggle so much to get housing ?  

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Housing | 22 comments (22 topical)

Re: Housing (#1)

by alexhilton on Mon Jun 26, 2006 at 02:50:47 PM GMT

Are you a single parent Gorwell? Have you applied to the Council for accomodation?


Re: Housing (#2)

by gorwell on Mon Jun 26, 2006 at 08:23:51 PM GMT

You did not answer my question.  Why not ?
I will rephrase "Do you think that someone -from a safe country - should arrive in this country and get given housing ?"  After all they could have saved a fortune by giving her an easy jet flight back home !


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#3)

by alexhilton on Mon Jun 26, 2006 at 08:52:38 PM GMT

I certainly don't think we should discriminate against people on the basis of race - and indeed it isn't legal to do so for people within the EU (except the may be some temporary exemptions for people from Nice Treaty countries).

But unless you are a single parent and you have applied for housing in the same borough and been rejected, I don't see what evidence there is that you have been discriminated against - which I would equally oppose.

Furthermore, you might like to see what rights you have in Spain as an EU citizen. There may be parts of Europe where you would get a much better deal than here if you do wish to live off the state.

However, I do have sympathy for your position as I think I am in the same boat. I have no children, I take home a decent living but still can't afford to buy a place because house prices and consequently deposits are so high.

In some ways the government is taking steps to address this but if there were an outright effort to burst the housing market bubble, that would have unpredictable implications for the economy in general and furthermore mightlily upset the Middle England block vote who all own their own homes and don't care about our prospects as much as they care about their own house prices. In fact, they're the group that's probably renting us our flats, which they bought by borrowing money against the increased value of their homes.

This is one of the perils of a stable economy - but it needs a delicate touch to rectify or else we'll all be harmed under an unstable economy.

But it's not the state that's screwing us, neither is it Spanish immigrants. It's the banks and the estate agents.

Rant over.


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#4)

by gorwell on Mon Jun 26, 2006 at 09:29:19 PM GMT

1) "It's the banks and the estate agents."
They are the same as they were 9 years ago when housing was affordable so I don't think it is just their fault.
Actually in other EU countries they would have told her to get lost eg Holland.
2) "I don't see what evidence there is that you have been discriminated against"
Well I couldn't be a single mum as a man !  However I never said that I was discriminated against - I just don't think it is fair that someone after a few weeks in the country got housing that I could not afford.  
3) "But it's not the state that's screwing us, neither is it Spanish immigrants".  So the housing crisis has got nothing to do with a system that gives housing to people who just got off a plane ?
If you believe that you will believe anything.   (a)More people + (b)no more homes = housing crisis.
Who is responsible for (a) and (b) - the government's immigration and housing policies.
However this is a happy story for Labour - she will of course pay back their genenoristy with our money by voting for Labour.  


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#5)

by alexhilton on Mon Jun 26, 2006 at 09:46:08 PM GMT

I'm quite sure I said "single parent" rather than "single mum", which is an eminently achievable status for a man.

Before the Tories sold so many council houses you might have had a better chance of getting a council house.

My comment on banks and estate agents was meant to be tongue-in-cheek - though they are screwing everyone as a matter of course.

As a Spanish Citizen, she won't get to vote Labour in a General Election, maybe in the Locals and Euros.

But most importantly, she has a child who has had no influence over the decisions of it's parent. We have to break a cycle where children who grow up in poverty grow up to have low aspirations for their own children in time. And so I absolutely make no apology for any policy that prioritises the vulnerable and the poor and those who can't speak for themselves above all others - including me.


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#6)

by gorwell on Mon Jun 26, 2006 at 10:02:29 PM GMT

"I'm quite sure I said "single parent" rather than "single mum", which is an eminently achievable status for a man."
Harder in reality

"Before the Tories sold so many council houses you might have had a better chance of getting a council house." In 1997 you didn't need to get a council anyone with a job could buy one sadly I was a) at uni and b) didn't know what Labour were going to do the housing supply.

"As a Spanish Citizen, she won't get to vote Labour in a General Election, maybe in the Locals and Euros."  She can apply for citizenship and even if she doesn't the list isn't that accurate.

BTW do you think that all single parents in the world should be able to get free accomodation in London ?  Otherwise we would be discriminating on race.


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#7)

by labourdavid on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 04:24:26 PM GMT

"BTW do you think that all single parents in the world should be able to get free accomodation in London ?"

No they shouldn't but it's a completely irrelevent point in an attempt to reduce a cogent argument to an absurdity. It will never happen. We (Britain) are members of a European single-market and are allowed to live and work anywhere we choose within that market. So are the Spaniards.

Perhaps your Spanish friend has skills that are useful to the UK. She probably speaks excellent English.

If you feel hard done by, you have a right to complain, but don't resort to blaming 'johnny foreigner' who has come and taken your jobs and homes - they haven't. Private accomodation has always been difficult to afford for thye lowest paid and council houses are always given to those in need first.

It is simply not true that "anyone with a job" could afford a home. The housing boom began under the previous government and has only continued due to economic stability. At least now you can save for a home and buy without worrying about negative equity. Council houses were sold off by the Tories and this is to blame for shortages, not Labour's immigration policy.

We need immigrants, not only to do jobs that Britons won't, but to help reverse our aging demographic which is contributing to the pensions crisis. House building is underway at a terrific rate and the market is slowing. Wages are rising at an average of 3%. It will get better.

I have sympathy with your plight, but don't blame others for your misfortune.


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#8)

by alexhilton on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 05:18:14 PM GMT

Incidentally Gorwell, did you apply for Council Housing?


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#9)

by gorwell on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 07:19:35 PM GMT

"Perhaps your Spanish friend has skills that are useful to the UK. She probably speaks excellent English."
Not a word when she arrived although  now after lots of training - no fees for her of course - she speaks a bit.  She certainly has no useful skills other than speaking Spanish which isn't very difficult - believe me.

"No they shouldn't but it's a completely irrelevent point in an attempt to reduce a cogent argument to an absurdity."   Why is it an abusrdity ?  Which single parents from other countries  shouldn't get accomodation in London ?
Certainly I think that a lot would come if they knew what they can get.  
"We need immigrants, not only to do jobs that Britons won't, but to help reverse our aging demographic which is contributing to the pensions crisis"

  1. Why can't Britons do cleaning jobs etc ? We have unemployment here.  Or do you think white people shouldn't do work like that ?
  2. Immigrants get old and will need pensions
  3. Even if everything you said was true since Blair came to power a lot of people have come to the UK and there have been a housing shortage.  Now no one says that the two are not 100% related, to say that a million people extra in the UK - particulary people who get subsidised housing - did not make the situation worse is crazy.


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#10)

by gorwell on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 07:22:48 PM GMT

"Incidentally Gorwell, did you apply for Council Housing?"  I am a white single man - don't be silly what would be the point ?  England will win the world cup twice - in football, rugby and cricket before that  happens.  I would be better off playing the lottery.  I have friends who had to wait 14 years and they had children and were sleeping in someones' lounge and still had to wait 4 years.


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#11)

by gorwell on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 07:35:29 PM GMT

"At least now you can save for a home and buy without worrying about negative equity"
True the bad thing is that in 18 + years when my children want to leave home they have zero chance of
getting a council house or buying a home.  I think I
prefer the risk of negative equity.  

"but don't resort to blaming 'johnny foreigner' who has come and taken your jobs and homes - they haven't."
Come off it, I know loads of South American immigrants less than 50% get subsidised - by me - housing while I live with drug addicts for neighbours - also subsidised by me - the idea that the two have no effect on one other is just crazy.
More people + no more houses = housing crisis.

But Blair etc live in a world where a 3 million home is affordable and sadly labour supporters believe everything he says.  


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#12)

by gorwell on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 07:45:51 PM GMT

BTW I don't have any problems with immigration providing a) they pay the same as us when they arrive b) we build enough homes.  If Blair said "Immigration is good for this country therefore we are going to build 15,000 homes in every London borough to provide housing". That would be a honest and valid statement.  (I would be a bit worried about water etc).


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#21)

by gorwell on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 08:18:34 PM GMT

"We have to break a cycle where children who grow up in poverty grow up to have low aspirations for their own children in time."
I agree however giving people who don't work better housing than those who don't does not encourage their children to work hard.  Rather if the child of a non working single mum sees that her mum has nicer housing than working relatives you are encouraging the child to full the same pattern.
In London you can be better off if you don't work than if you do particulary with regards to housing.
What sort of aspirations does that give someone from a poor background ?
Also can we house every single mum in the world ?  If not which ones should we say no to ?  


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#13)

by snowflake5 on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:32:15 PM GMT

I thnk your housing problem is down to the word "London". It's an extraordinarily big rich city, and one of the few world megapolises that is continuing to grow (unlike New York which is shrinking).  So of course housing is difficult in London, as is parking, and well everything. Here's a thought - have you considered living elsewhere in Britain?  Life is pretty good out here in provincial England. There's jobs, less stress, more green space. You'll probably be able to afford to buy your own house, and not have problems parking!  Just a thought.


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#14)

by gorwell on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 01:37:06 PM GMT

I have thought of leaving London - emmigrating but my wife doesn't want to - I don't want to move somewhere else in the UK.  It would annoy me that I pay for others to live in my home town whilst I can not afford to.
Also a lot of places in the UK are unaffordable cornwall etc which weren't when Labour came to power.  In 1996 a good wage for a graduate was £14 -16 K p.a and the average price of a house in London was £100 K now a good wage is £20-22 K p.a and the average price is £300 K.  Does anyone not believe that Labour's open immigration policy and lack of new housing is not partially responsible ?


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#17)

by snowflake5 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 07:43:19 PM GMT

House prices in 1996 were cheaper than house prices in 1987 - they were un-naturally depressed due to the Tory recession. Of course they've gone up as the economy has strengthened - they've gone back up to trend. Complaining that houses are not the same cost as in 1996 is like complaining that the price of milk is not the same as in 1996.

Of course those who bought in 1996 are laughing - but you know, people are funny - I recall trying to persuade a colleague at work to buy then, and he refused, because he was convinced it was a huge risk, that houses would go down further and what if he lost his job? He eventually bought in 2001, paying quite a bit more.

And that's the moral of the story - if house prices are very low, there's a very good reason - usually economic recession, and people fearing losing their jobs, and therefore refusing to take the risk of buying. The unemployment benefit claimant rate was 7% in 1996, it's 3% now. You are looking back thinking that you would have been able to afford something, but as a new graduate, it's likely you would have been unemployed.

Don't knock living outside of London. I live in Southampton, and it's nice. There's quite a good city scene, if that's what you want, plus a huge heavily wooded common, and a laid-back atmosphere. You can buy a 1-bed flat for about £100k if you buy in the suburbs. Council tax is reasonable here too, and they've built loads of multi-storey car parks, about £3 for three hours, to ease parking. New graduate salaries are about 20k - I'm surprised they are as low as you report in London. I guess it depends on what you graduated in. Unless you are completely rubbish at your job, you'll get pay-rises.  If you are thinking about buying a three-bed house as a first-time buyer - forget it, it was never possible. You always have to start small and work your way up.    


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#15)

by alexhilton on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 01:51:47 PM GMT

Sure we can bring down house prices if we engineer another Tory-style recession.

But in that case, you can pay the benefits for 3 million unemployed and be at the whim of crazy mortgage rates instead.

I'm still not embarrased that we have maintained a stable economy.


Re: Housing (#16)

by gorwell on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:15:22 PM GMT

"Sure we can bring down house prices if we engineer another Tory-style recession.

But in that case, you can pay the benefits for 3 million unemployed and be at the whim of crazy mortgage rates instead."
Please live in the real world if you count the number of people on incapcity support unemployment is about the same as under the Tories.  Rather amusing they worked out how to fiddle the figures the same time as they lost power!
 


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#18)

by snowflake5 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 08:03:10 PM GMT

There were people under incapacity benefits under the Tories too. In fact the phenomenon started circa 1983, when the mines and factories shut and a whole generation shifted onto disability, and stayed there. The % of the workforce claiming disability has stayed roughly stable for over two decades now.

It's clear from what you write, you weren't an adult under the Tories. It was a nightmare. If you bought a house in 1987, when interest rates were 8%, you suddenly found yourself paying 15% in 1990. I know loads of people who simply handed back their keys to the building society - and found to their shock they were still liable for the debt, because the building societies sold the houses for less than the mortgage, and they were liable for the difference, while not having any property and having to pay rent elsewhere. Loads of people were losing their jobs, which meant they couldn't keep up with their mortgages. Inflation was rising very fast too - not only was your mortgage payment suddenly double, but you couldn't afford to buy anything with what was left over as prices in the shops shot up too.  

Lots of people tried to stick it out and wait for prices to rise - people who couldn't stand each other and wanted a divorce, had to put up with the situation and continue living together as they couldn't sell. Lots of those properties couldn't be sold for what they were bought for till about 1999.    

Loads of people bought interest-only mortgages in conjunction with an endowment, and found that the endowments weren't going to be enough to pay the mortgage off, and had to double what they put in. This was the period of pensions mis-selling, where loads of people were persuaded by Maggie's legislation, to leave their very good company schemes to take out personal pensions with huge charges. Regulation of everything was poor. Everywhere you looked people were getting screwed and losing money.

It was just dreadful - I can't imagine why anyone would want to go back to that period (unless you weren't an adult at the time and have been sold a load of guff about how wonderful it was).

The three worst recessions of the 20th Century all occured under the Tories - and that's not an accident.


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#19)

by gorwell on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 02:31:14 PM GMT

"The % of the workforce claiming disability has stayed roughly stable for over two decades"
That is just not true it increased a lot under Major as unemployment fell under Major.  Then Labour came in and managed to carry on fiddling - another Tory policy they stole.

"It was just dreadful - I can't imagine why anyone would want to go back to that period "
Actually I was an adult - sadly I was at uni in 1991.  
Of course if I was a student now I would want to go back there was free education and the dream you could buy a house on graduation and we had the hope (ha ha) Labour would give us grants again.
Anyway to get back to the original debate - I am not a tory.  Do you think all single parents in the world should have the right to free housing in London ?  If not why not ?  


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#20)

by John Miles on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 08:55:10 PM GMT

Labour have reinstated grants for the poorest. And the poorest dont have to pay tuition fees either.

Nobody seems to care about the facts on that issue though.


[ Parent ]

Re: Housing (#22)

by mt999 on Sun Oct 08, 2006 at 01:03:54 PM GMT

What has happened to housing under Labour is an absolute disgrace. Housing costs have risen way above wages and inflation, funnily enough housing costs aren't included in the inflation measure meaning interest rates can stay low and keep the whole ridiculous merry-go-round going.

Even with low interest rates people can only buy homes by living on a financial knife edge, and with Labour promoting property as an investment the situation gets worse by the day. The UK is fast becoming a nation divided by housing wealth and is now a much worse place for young people as a result. The debt culture continues to become further embedded in society as the Bank of England sit back and keep rates on hold.

Labour has expanded Shared Ownership schemes which seem to have an arbitrary qualification criteria, and they have the effect of boosting house prices even more and making the problem worse. It makes houses LESS AFFORDABLE for people who don't qualify and is a hugely short-sighted policy which avoids tackling the real problem of high prices.


Housing | 22 comments (22 topical)