Terrorism - liek the 7/7 and 21/7 bombers, who were all legally resident here (I think).

Immigration - er, how about better border controls? ID cards would only help if the police did regular drag net style searches and then the State had the political will to chuck out hundreds of thousands of illegals. Apparently they're going to hand out ID cards to everybody anyway, UK and foreigner alike.

Benefits abuse - apparently relatively little benefits fraud is based on fake IDs, with the exception mentioned above. Whether the DSS ask for your birth certificate or passport or an ID card is neither here nor there.

Criminal behaviour - so after I've been mugged I ask the perp whether I can see his ID card?

Costs - which Labour donor is going to get the contract?

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"ID cards will be a fantastic addition to this country."

That's just rubbish.

"90% of the information is out there anyway. You leave behind information on yourself ever week. Your bank has it, annoying telesales persons have it, and most importantly so do the government."

That's not a reason - if that's the case, why the need for an ID card? Tidiness?  Why criminalise anyone who doesn't have one, or doesn't carry one?

"Yes, trhe addition of biometrics is another step in this process, but it has many benefits. Fraud, terrorism, immigration, benefits abuses can be far more eaily sought out."

Fact: the costs of ID fraud and theft have been massively overplayed.  Fact: it would have no impact on terrorism (7/7, 9/11, Madrid, to name a few).  Immigration, you may have a point.  But I struggle to see why I should have my civil liberties trampled on just because the Government can't track immigrants.

"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear."

That is perhaps the most chilling comment I have heard from a Labour supporter.  It reminds me of so many totalitarian states, I'm nearly lost for words. Jews, Gypsies and Trade Unionists had 'nothing to hide' in Nazi Germany (efficient users of ID cards) but everything to fear.  You have to legislate while thinking about how future governments may use the information.

"Granted, there should be major concerns about the organisation of how this is to be set up and financed, but ultimately, there are massive advantages to fighting criminal behavior."

No one has yet convincingly demonstrated the supposed 'massive advantages'.

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ID cards make me lose my temper - sorry.

"I'd rather have it all 'tidy' and central than have my information far less secured and scattered around."

Scattered means no single person has all of your details.  I am a former civil servant and have seen with my own eyes how government databases are accessed for unauthorised use.  There is no evidence that it will be more secure.  And 'tidy' is simply not a sufficient explanation for a policy of this size and scale.

"And NOBODY is talking about criminalising anybody. You carry a driving license, a credit card etc etc, why not just tie your information together."

I can choose whether I need a driving license or credit card.  The government will compel me by law to have an ID card.  No choice.

"ID fraud affects either directly or indirectly a quarter of the population. Estimates say it costs over a billion pounds each year."

There is no evidence that suggests all, or even a significant proportion of this, will be solved by ID cards.

"I believe in the case of 9.11 it would have as some of the hijackers had overstayed their visas."

Visas for visitors are not the same as ID cards for citizens, so the argument doesn't hold.

"No it cannot stop domestic terrorists, BUT it would be extremely difficult for foreign terrorists to get into the country which is a major threat."

No it wouldn't.  They would use passports, like everyone else.

"I think making a comparison between nazi germany and a democracy like britain is even more chilling."

I stand by this absolutely.  It places huge centralised power in the hands of government.  If any future government wished to pick out all the Singhs or Mohammeds or Cohens (or Smiths) in the UK, or everyone with blue eyes for that matter, they could.  It's not about what this government would do (just about every other New Labour policy I agree with, including the invasion of Iraq) - it's about what others might do, officially or otherwise.

"I think there are massive advatages to be made against crimal activity, fraud, potentially terrorism, a useful administrative tool that will cut out the need for carrying around various documents and will provide a quick proof of identity to verify ownership or eligibility to services which in the case of social security abuses will be a significant tool."

You think there are advantages.  Given the policy costs £5bn or more, and is a cornerstone of the government's agenda, don't you think we should <u>know</u> there are advantages, rather than suspecting there may be some?

It boils down to evidence.  There is absolutely no evidence that they will make the world a better place, and every chance they will make it worse.

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We are repeatedly told that crime has dropped under this Labour government.  Are you saying, crime is now SUCH an issue that we need ID cards?  Where are the stats to back this up?

Also, I have my doubts that the men willing to take a boat from Senegal to Tenerife are going to be quaking in their boots at the prospect of ID cards. How in practical terms will ID cards prevent entry into the UK?  

You like the phrase 'overseen by'. The mind boggles. The Home Office's lack of oversight on  foreign prisoners, open prisoners, people on probation, care homes is hardly a ringing endorsement of a department fit to cope with sensitive information on every man and woman in the UK.

Labour has cocked up the rural payments scheme, the child tax credits scheme, the NHS IT scheme to name a few. All IT heavy, top-down solutions which have singularly failed. What gives you any confidence that ID cards, implemnetation of which will be an order of magnitude more complex than even the NHS IT scheme, can be done effectively and efficiently?

For God's sake, get a grip and understand what a crapulous load of nonsense the whole concept is.

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