Our prisons are stuffed

Reid has drastic solutions to a drastic problem, but is he right?

Our prisons are full.  It's official.  John Reid has today announced that police cells are to be used to house convicted criminals, and that he plans to use abandoned army camps and a former secure hospital to ease the crisis.  

The Tories have naturally jumped on the bandwagon, attacking Reid as "lackadaisical and slow to act".  There was some confusion before the Tory announcement, as someone was unsure as whether `lackadaisical' was spelt correctly.  After consulting the "cleverest man in politics," one Rt Hon Dr. O. Letwin, they agreed it was spelt with one L.

Of course we know the Tories have a point, but not for the reason they think they do.  At the recent Tory Conference, Shadow Home Secretary and perennial loser David Davis, promised a salivating audience "more prisons," but didn't offer any clues as to how such an undertaking would be funded.  Prison building is an expensive business y'know?

The current crisis has been bubbling up for some time.  For the last couple of years the Home Office has been warned that prisons are nearing meltdown, and that if judges continue to give custodial sentences for relatively minor offences, then a tipping point would be around the corner.  Well, we have turned that corner and we have tipped sure enough.

For some time officials have been shuttling prisoners between prisons to ease the congestion, and now with numbers almost reaching the bright red 80,000 mark, such logistical manoeuvres are no longer enough.  A former category C prison official told this blog, "There are some people in prison who don't need to be there, maybe they need some sort of help, rather than banging them up for minor offences."  He went on, "it was near breaking point when I was there [2 years ago], and the government knew it."  The official told me that incidences of attempted escapes had reduced when razor wire was introduced at his prison, yet because resources were stretched, incidents had begun to creep up again, and, "it wasn't those who were in for not paying their council taxes who were prone to escaping."  Scary.

But ultimately it is the government's nervousness of upsetting the rightwing press that really drives their policy.  Rather than spending money on tackling criminality at source, treating the causes of social breakdown, our supposedly progressive government likes to bang minor criminals in jail, in line with the worst dog-whistle Tory policies. Clearly, as Philip Stephens' outlines in today's FT, here (subs required), increasing the numbers of people behind bars does not increase the likelihood, as Michael Howard argued, that "prison works." From Stephen's article:

The snag is that prison is not working. The government's argument, conveniently, fits the prejudices of the tabloids: Mr Blair will never get a bad headline for sending more people to jail. But it also twists the unassailable case that society must be protected from violent and determined criminals into one that pretends that filling the prisons to overflowing is the way to combat crime. The hard evidence, inconveniently, says otherwise.

Since 1997 the numbers in prison have risen from 60,000 to a record 80,000. On present trends the figure will climb still faster to reach 100,000 within six years or so. It might be thought that this reflects a criminal justice system that has become more effective in catching and convicting society's miscreants. In reality, the numbers sentenced by the courts have remained remarkably stable.

What has happened is that these people are being treated more harshly. At the government's behest, courts have been handing out more custodial sentences for petty offences and applying longer sentences for more serious crimes. The consequent overcrowding has destroyed any pretence that, alongside punishment and immediate protection for the public, prison should safeguard society by rehabilitating offenders.

The effect of incarcerating minor offenders and abandoning serious efforts at rehabilitation has been to make it more likely that they will become repeat offenders. Fifteen years ago a little above 50 per cent of those leaving prison committed new crimes within two years. The proportion now is nearly 70 per cent.

Now that is scary.

Charles Bushell, the leader of the Prison Governors' Association, raised an interesting point on the Guardians' Daily newsdesk podcast today, when he said that prison numbers had doubled since the Tories introduced private enterprise into the prison system.    Could it be that introducing the concept of profits into our prisons has driven up the number of custodial sentences, and therefore the demand for said services?  Hmmmm.  It just so happens, that the only other country with a comparable rocketing prison population, is the only country with a similar level of private enterprise within its system:  namely, The United States.

Bushell spoke to the BBC last week and asked, "We have reached bursting point. Anybody who says we should build more prisons needs to say how many and where the money is going to come from?"  Well David Davis, we're waiting?

From tygerland.net


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Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#1)

Fact 1, a large number of prisoners are from broken homes, single parent families etc.

Fact 2, UK benefits system does most (compared to other EU countries) to encourage/subsidise single parenthood and unlike in other EU countries, our divorce laws are no financial disincentive for women to get divorced.

Fact 3, UK has highest number of children growing up without both parents and highest prison population.

Fact 4, however much sympathy you may feel with criminals (poor upbringing and so on), isn't the whole point of the criminal justice system to protect the general public?

Fact 5, in pure financial terms, the cost of buildign new prisons and locking people up is less than the corresponding cost of crime to society at large, it may be a bit less, or it may be a fraction thereof, it depends how you look at the figures.

Fact 6, once you start looking at the FACTS and drawing the inevitable conclusions, you start to sound right-wing. Why is that? Does being left-wing mean you haev to ignore FACTS?

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#3)

Fact 1, a large number of prisoners are from families living in poverty.

Fact 2, UK benefits system does less (compared to other EU countries) to help those living in poverty and unlike in other EU countries

Fact 3, UK has a high number of children growing up in poverty and highest prison population.

Fact 4, however much sympathy you may feel with criminals (divorced parents and so on), isn't the whole point of the criminal justice system to protect the general public?

Fact 5, in pure financial terms, the cost of building a fairer society is, in the long term,  far lower than dealing with the corresponding cost of crime to society at large, it may be a bit less, or it may be a fraction thereof, it depends how you look at the figures.

Fact 6, once you start looking at the FACTS and drawing the inevitable conclusions, you start to sound left-wing. Why is that? Does being right-wing mean you haev to ignore FACTS?

Clearly it's not that black and white, but I think you get my point Mark

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#4)

Glasshouse! Let me clarify.

Fact 1. It is not poverty in itself that causes crime. It is substance abuse, family breakdown etc. These factors also cause poverty, for sure, but you have to look at causality. There's a pretty good argument for making most drugs legally available of course, but that is a different topic.

Fact 2. I said, the UK does much more than other EU countries to encourage/subsidise single-parenthood via rules on benefits, tax, divorce, allocation of council housing and general attitudes. I did not say that UK welfare system is on the whole more or less generous (it is somewhere in the middle). This is not so relevant right now.

Fact 3, I am trying to look at causality. No matter how generous the benefits system, kids with only one parent will always be worse off. There appears to be a general overall link between single parents, lack of discipline, substance abuse, crime. Don't accuse me of saying that all single mothers make terrible parents - quite clearly they don't, but if 80,000 prisoners are all from broken homes, that suggests that it is sufficient for 0.5% of single mothers to be bad mothers to sustain crime levels.

Fact 5. The costs of crime and building and running prisons can all be quantified within a large-ish margine of error. Can you put forward a few cost estimates for "building a fairer society" and exactly how you are going to spend the money? And again, please don't accuse me of demanding an unfair society because it's cheaper. It doesn't work like that!

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#6)

You now seem to be talking about "a general overall link" between single parents, lack of discipline, substance abuse, crime. You originally said that broken homes CAUSED the others. I don't think it's that simple

What do you suggest to "support marriage". Do you mean extra money for married couples? How do you propose to pay for this?
Or do you mean less help/benefits for single mothers?

Prison option:

  • Loss to the economy because of the original crime that was comitted
  • Prisoners are economically inactive and therefore reduce the productivity of the country

Fairer society (yes, it's a wooly term, but...):
Investment in social capital decreases crime (and therefore the cost of policing) and increases people's contribution to the country, giving a net economic gain for the initial outlay.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#13)

"Support marriage"...

I recommend you research the concept of a Citizen's Income to replace as much of existing welfare system as possible. The amount per adult does not distinguish on grounds of marital status or otherwise.

If you want to interpret this as "more for married couples, less for single mothers" then so be it.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#14)

Citizens income seems to propose abolishing the current system and creating a new one that gives rich people more and poor people less than they get at present.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#16)

Nope. The Citizen's Income is the same for everybody. Not more for the rich or anything like that. Try this summary from Green Party.

http://archive.greenparty.org.uk/reports/2000/ci/citinc3.htm

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#17)

You misunderstand my point

I mean that, currently, poor people get more than rich people from the benefits system.

If you get the same amount of money and then divide it equally, poor individuals will get less than before and rich people will get more than before.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#20)

Well you see, that all depends on the level of the Citizen's Income and the rate of tax used to finance it!

See my report at www.bowgroup.org for a fiscally and politically neutral model.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#26)

please explain. You seem to a proposing a flat tax on everything over 11k and proposing a "flat benefit"/Citizen income regime.

I can't see how this result in anything other than people earning 11k paying substantially more tax and recieving less benefit (in order to swithc some of the benefit 'pot' to pay rich people a benefit).

Explanation...?

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#27)

And could you explain how the ""Land Value Tax" of 1% per annum on the value of all residential properties" that you propose would be paid for.

How much do you estimate it would cost to revalue EVERY SINGLE residential property in the UK EVERY YEAR?

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#30)

Not very much at all, honestly, greater minds than mine have pondered this topic. Compared to the costs of adminstering Council Tax, Council Tax benefit, Inheritance Tax, Stamp Duty Land Tax, Capital Gains Tax and the TV licence fee, the running costs would pale into insignificance.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#32)

I suspect your underestimating the ease in collecting that sort of information. There are millions of houses in the UK.

The legal cost would be massive too.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#28)

Glasshouse, the system I suggested is this...

People earning £11,000 pay no tax at all. Lower and average earners earning more than £11,000 pay less tax than now - their personal allowance is £6,000 higher do not forget!!! Higher earners pay about the same as now.

People earning less than £11,000 get a flat £80 per week benefits (housing benefit is a slightly different topic) BUT there is no means testing. INSTEAD OF means testing, claimants do not get a personal allowance for tax, so they pay tax on all their income.

If claimant earns around £11,000, then the tax he pays and the benefits he gets net off to about nil, this is the true personal allowance.

You just have to understand the maths of taxation and benefits.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#33)

How much of this decrease assume a tax cut due to efficiency savings gained from simplifying the tax system?

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#34)

A smallish amount.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#36)

Alex can you do something about the 'Replies to' They seem to be getting longer and longer, like the Mouse's Tail in Alice! If it goes on any longer we'll have single letters running down the page and we'll need to turn the laptop sideways to read it. Oh, the debate is quite interesting. Prison doesn't work, we need to get them out of their cells and working on community projects, under supervision of course.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#37)

y o u h a v e a g o o d p o i n t t h e r e !

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#19)

Most prisoners are illiterate, it's the main reason they turn to drug-dealing and other crime, illiteracy makes it impossible to get jobs.

It's one of the things that prompted the Labour govt to start testing children in primary school. It's no longer possible for children to get through school by sitting at the back of the class and blagging their way through and no one realising they can't read. Sure some teachers teach to the test, but at the very least it means that the kids get to learn how to read the test questions and how to write the test answers - i.e. they become literate. But it will take years for this to show up in a lower prison population. Children going through the primary school testing under this government won't become adults for another 8-10 years.

Trying to get kids off to a good start is also the reason the govt is pushing Sure Start so hard - it really works. Anything that can get kids to get a good education will keep them out of jail. Mr Blair also talked about intervening early and sending parents to classes on how not to be dysfunctional - the idea is to stop the problems before they arise. But again, it will be years before we see the benefits.

Re divorce and single-parenthood - the causality with jail is very weak. Most children of divorced families turn out ok, as do most children of single parents.

In any case, I'm not sure it's a good idea to make divorce difficult - marriages breakup for profound reasons of unhappiness and sometimes violence, and it's in no one's interests, least of all the child, to let such a situation continue.

As for tax benefits of marriage - do you know anyone who has said, let's get married, there's a tax advantage? People whose marriages start off on such a mercenary basis are likely to break up at the first storm eg if one partner lost their job, or became too ill to work etc. It's a recipe for increasing the divorce rate. It's actually best the state stays out of these relationships and doesn't try to distort them financially.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#22)

Stop just trotting out the New Labour propaganda and THINK for yourself once. And don't keep changing the premise of the detbate - all of a sudden it's not family breakdown or drugs, it's illiteracy that's to blame.

Fair enough, but the root causes of illiteracy are exactly the same. I bet you a £ to a p that most kids playing hookey and mucking about in classroom (and murdering fellow pupils, teachers etc) are from single parent families and so on.

And what is the root cause of single parent families? Our benefits/ tax/ council house allocation/ divorce/ general value systems. These are markedly different to rest of EU and the level of single parent families are markedly higher and so on.

Just read my first post and try and keep up!!!

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#24)

Mark, why don'y You try and do some research instead of trying to trott out cliches about how crime is down to family breakdown and single parents?

The stats show that crime is correlated with illiteracy. As for the divorce rate, it has dropped under New Labour. (It's no accident that the all time high divorce rate was in 1991 under John Major - recession taking it's toll. Which proves Glass House's point that poverty is at the root of all ills). And marriage rates have risen under New Labour. The family breakdown thing is a red herring - families are less likely to break down now than under the Tories (because life stresses are lower due to economic stability).

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#35)

I give in.

Presumably in your warped world-view, today's illiteracy is all down to misguided Tory policies of yesteryear, as long as New Labour can just stay in power for ever, sooner or later literacy will improve and the world will be perfect.

Given that Tories and Labour have both been in power for similar periods over the last century, do you have any evidence whatsoever that literacy standards improved while Labour were in power and vice versa?

Do you deny that their is any correlation between
a) our tax, benefits, council house allocation etc systems that reward and encourage single-parenthood (relative to other EU countries), and
b) the high number of single-parent families (relative to other EU countries), and
c) levels of child poverty (poor parents = poor children, to put it bluntly), and
d) our lower levels of literacy (if that is your chosen indicator of poverty), and
e) our apparently higher crime levels?

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#8)

As suggested the root cause goes right back to family breakdown, which has been exacerbated by this Government. Labour have always thought the answer lies in State intervention, in fact the opposite is true. When they start focusing on the family and shift off minorities we are on our way.
Tony talked about tackling the causes of crime but when you get the premise wrong its not surprising things get worse.
This poverty thing is all relative. If you dont have a Hol. you are meant to be in poverty. I know people who chose to spend on other things for the family but Hols do not come up the priority list. Holidays are not a 'Must' they are a 'want'.
Labour has caused parents to focus on materialism at the expense of time consuming parental duties. One of their biggest mistakes which will take a generation to be reversed
Active parenting is the most important job in the whole economy. Not marginal call centre's and admin roles.

In the meantime they will have no choice but to build more prisons and lock up even more feral youth.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#11)

Firstly - what do you propose the government should do to "focus on the family"?

Secondly - I only used the word "poverty" to make a point. I would say that social exclusion (of which poverty is a part) is the main causes crime.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed by Labour (#29)

Re-orintate the whole tax system to support families. Not the current system to benfit minorities and single parent families.
The explosion in single parent families has been on the back of benefits,free houes and allowing the other spouse to escape responsibilities (part of the CSA meltdown)

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#23)

"As suggested the root cause goes right back to family breakdown, which has been exacerbated by this Government"

!!  Actually the divorce rate has been dropping under this government. Have a look at this pdf file.

There were 156,692 decrees absolute in 1996, and this had dropped to 153,199 in 2004. 1991 was the all time record of 158,301 (stress of recession taking it's toll there).

As for parenting, education and the causes of crime - I'd like to point out that anyone aged 29 and over was educated under previous governments. It's only now that we are seeing people come through that have been in secondary school under New Labour. And the vast majority arn't in jail! It will be another 8-10 years before we see the benefits of the changes we've made to the primary school system (particularly catching children who struggle with reading).

And of course Sure Start helps with both education and parenting, which is why it is important that it isn't scrapped.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#31)

I was not thinking particularly about divorce, more about Labours support for any other grouping but the family.
The 'not on our watch' argument does not wash and fools no one. They can see Labour's approach has failed and realise a new way is required.

Sure Start has been hijacked by the middle classes and is not catching those people you talk about (See Thread)

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#2)

"Fifteen years ago a little above 50 per cent of those leaving prison committed new crimes within two years. The proportion now is nearly 70 per cent."

Couple of problems here.

First, by his own admission, these are not the same people. He says that more people have been sentenced for petty crimes; isn't it possible that such people are in any case more inclined to re-offend, and would have done so even (or possibly even especially) if they'd not been to prison?

Secondly, how do we know that they've re-offended? If prison numbers are rising, and the proportion of ex-convicts committing crimes has risen so dramatically, then crime ought to be rising too, but the government insists the opposite is true, and he says himself that the numbers sentenced have stayed stable. The only way the numbers add up is if first-time offenders are dramatically fewer; is this true, and if so, is it possible that some would-be first-times are being deterred by tougher sentencing? Though if this is the case, it would be a remarkable coincidence that produced such a balance.

Without wishing to cause offence, I suspect Stephens' data is not robust enough to support his conclusions.

Furthermore, the Tories do support tackling crime at its causes - like providing good education based on proper school discipline, and refusing to subsidise family breakups with taxpayers money. Unfortunately such policies do not meet with the approval of the Left, which is quite happy to see teachers physically attacked in their classrooms (as happened once to my wife) and do sod all about it.

And is disingenuous to complain that over-full prisons are the result of Tory policies when Labour has been in power for nine years, or to complain about lack of money when this government has shown no reluctance whatever to squander it on whatever takes its fancy, including for example massively disfunctional IT systems on which billions have wasted.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#5)

In reply to the question at the end, the money will either come from taxation, from borrowing or by cutting waste.

Doubling prison places would increase public spending by a bare 0.5%. A government that has increased real expenditure by 50% over the last nine years should not have too much of a problem there, should it?

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#7)

A 50% increase in real terms?
where on earth did you get that figure from?

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#9)

Table B1 of the attached.

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/D51/DC/'B1'!A1

that shows 70% nominal, let's knock off 20% for inflation, call it increase of 50%.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#10)

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#12)

which document? (dont make me look throught them all)

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#15)

Sheet B1 of the link called "Excel File of latest Public Finances Databank 22 September 2006"

Or you could try this link

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/D51/DC/publicfinancesdatabank_220906.xls

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#18)

I have to admit to being suprised by the figure.

Although, it's worth pointing out (after a quick calculation from the table) that Labour's %-increase in public expenditure in the 9 years since 1997 is slightly smaller than the %-increase for the 9 years prior to 1997.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#21)

Yup, but inflation was higher for those nine years, so the real increase was less.

Re: Our prisons are stuffed (#25)

Yes, so in real terms, public expenditure has risen faster in the last nine years than the nine prior to 1997 - I think it needed to and Im happy with that.

Im just saying that the 50%(ish) real-term figure (which shocked me), is less shocking when put in context.