Does Britain risk creating a system of "voluntary apartheid"?

archbold Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 06:04:27 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

This morning David Davies has said that Britain risks creating a system of "voluntary apartheid".



Although David Davies provides no constructive way of dealing with the "problem", he does raise a number of issues. The issue of Muslim woman wearing a niqab has not gone away because it is symptomatic of a much bigger problem which is (to put it simply) that multiculturalism has failed.  Instead if encouraging integration we now have country on the verge of division, Muslims and Afro- Caribbeans feel isolated. Having said that this is not a meant to be a comment on whether multiculturalism has or has not failed, we spend too much time discussing the symptoms of the problem and not enough time dealing with the root cause. The cause, as I see it, is a lack of identity for many BME groups in this country. Growing-up in the 70's I experienced raw racism which was endemic in this county, today it is more concealed but it is equally as prevalent. Sadly Labour has done little to tackle the problem indeed some government ministers have exploited the problem in order to gain the popular vote. I never thought I would say this but I agree with David Davis we are heading towards a voluntarily apartheid system. The blame, however, should not be placed at the door of BME groups but firmly at the door of the main stream political parties, who say they want a debate, but instead criticise and attack and therefore perpetuate, indeed encourage, even further isolation.

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Does Britain risk creating a system of "voluntary apartheid"? | 11 comments (11 topical)

Re: Does Britain risk (#1)

by davidfloyd on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 08:24:05 PM GMT

I don't think were going to create system of voluntary apartheid unless that's what most people in the countey, or most people in a specific group, want.

I don't see any evidence that anyone does want it.

Not sure where multiculturalism comes in. Multiculturalism, as a understand it, isn't a political policy.

You could only choose not have multiculturalism if someone was promoting a monoculturalist position as an alternative.

In France, rightly or wrongly, that option is pursued - with politicians on all sides favouring republican ideals over the traditions of ethnic or religious groups.

In Britain nobody is putting forward any ideas about Britishness that mean anything to a significant proportion of people from the largest ethnic group, let alone one that cuts across culture, religion and ethnicity to form a collective national identity.

White British people are just as multi-cultural as non-white British people.


.."voluntary apartheid"? (#2)

by Mark Wadsworth on Mon Oct 16, 2006 at 09:59:32 AM GMT

This whole "debate" on Muslim/white divide is being stoked up deliberately by the Labour leadership as part of their election strategy - as ably outlined by Blair in his interview with Andrew Marr last month...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/sunday_am/5375712.stm

Blair explains that, as Labour are incapable of dealing with any real crisis, they plan to:

  1. Stoke up fears about something or other (immigration, crime, Islamism, housing, whatever) and then
  2. Come up with a pre-prepared "plan" to sort it all out.

In practice is works like this:

  1. Start yapping on about veils (to wind up Muslims and re-ignite suspicions among wider population about whether the Muslims want to integrate at all). Turn a blind eye to radical Islamism, e.g. the very offensive placards help aloft outside Westminster Cathedral saying that "Rome should burn". None of this does anything for good race relations.

  2. Suggest a whole raft of measures to deal with the "problem", in this case, the authoritarian measures (that never work) such as ID cards; end to banking secrecy; 90 day detention; and supposedly helpful measures (that never work either) such as school selection by race/religion; positive discrimination and quotes; cutting funding for non-compliant Muslim organisations(?); quangoes and agencies set up to help foster integration, and so on.

Labour's 2-stage approach is very cunning; the minute any opposition politician actually responds to it, he falls exactly into the trap and ends up looking either too soft or racist.

Or in the case of Trevor Phillips, probably both.


Re: .."voluntary apartheid"? (#3)

by swatantra on Mon Oct 16, 2006 at 11:01:04 AM GMT

Absolute codswallop. Anyone stirring up racial antipathy is playing a very dangerous game, and it's certainly not this Government. The Media, the Sun and perhaps possibly some sections of the Tory Party are still playing the Race Card,  but definitely not the Government. This has all come to a boil because some extremist elements in Muslim Community actually want to create separate communities and they've said so publically. What the Govt has to do is keep a clear head and really start putting pressure on thr Muslim Comunnity to adapt to life in Britain. It is beigining to work. Even a Lefty firebrands like Ken Livingstone have come out publically saying no to veils. We need more politicians taking a lead and saying No: enough is enough. Maybe then the Muslim Coucil will get the message.


[ Parent ]

Re: .."voluntary apartheid"? (#8)

by Mark Wadsworth on Mon Oct 16, 2006 at 05:00:57 PM GMT

by swatantra on Sun Oct 08, 2006 at 06:14:48 PM GMT on a similar topic...

"... Well by wearing the extreme clothing they are in fact drawing attention to themselves and getting adverse comment. With just the headscarf they would just be another face in the crowd and would escape notice altogether. At the bottom of it all is a deep insecurity in themselves and their beliefs. They want to proove their new-found faith by going to the extreme. Wrongly in my opinion. We didn't get all this nonsense in the 80's".

Being a bit cheeky, who was in power in the 80's?


[ Parent ]

Re: .."voluntary apartheid"? (#4)

by Glass House on Mon Oct 16, 2006 at 12:05:18 PM GMT

Oh come on Mark!

I really enjoyed your stuff on the other thread about tax. I thought "finally - an interesting rightwinger who's willing to engage" ... and now this? You're WAY off.


[ Parent ]

Re: .."voluntary apartheid"? (#5)

by Mark Wadsworth on Mon Oct 16, 2006 at 12:41:58 PM GMT

Who says I'm right wing? I'll engage with anybody from Greens to UKIP.

The veil/headscarf issue is not new, how come Labour leadership are now coming out in droves?  And appearing to be broadly against them. It can't be a coincidence.

The whole thing makes me very uneasy. IF Muslims WANT to integrate they will, like Jewish people, Hindus and so on. Jewish people and Hindus still have their "own identity" (whatever that is). IF Muslims DON'T want to integrate, then they won't and there is nothing you can do about it.

Labour love playing the race card. As soon as somebody mentioned controlling/reducing immigration they are automatically racist. So in other words, the only politically acceptable position is to allow uncontrolled immigration.

I know that most of the world's population lives in despotic hell holes, unsurprisingly a lot of them would like to come here, but we just don't have space for all of them, as much as I would like to help.


[ Parent ]

Re: .."voluntary apartheid"? (#9)

by davidfloyd on Wed Oct 18, 2006 at 06:07:12 PM GMT

"As soon as somebody mentioned controlling/reducing immigration they are automatically racist. So in other words, the only politically acceptable position is to allow uncontrolled immigration."

Well for the last ten years at least, most politicians from the major parties have spouted plenty of anti-immigration rhetoric.

I actually support unrestricted immigration (on the basis of a work permit system) but given that this isn't actually the policy of any of the three major parties, I'm unclear about how you can argue that it's the only position that's politically acceptable.

Labour has - in my view rightly - has a liberal attitude towards immigration from the new EU countries but that's not even close to being a policy of uncontrolled immigration.


[ Parent ]

Re: .."voluntary apartheid"? (#10)

by Mark Wadsworth on Wed Oct 18, 2006 at 06:17:02 PM GMT

Hang about here, on the whole, I don't think that people are in the slightest bothered by Poles etc. who come over here to work. And those that are bothered, are bothered purely on economic grounds, i.e. builders who are being undercut (including, amusingly enough, established Indian builders in Southall). I don't think there is any racial prejudices involved against young, hard-working, white Christian East Europeans.

If you're in favour of a work permit system, then you are automatically a racist as well. Because you'd be shutting down the whole forced marriage/ imported spouse type immigration where the immigrant has not the slightest intention of working or fitting in, can't speak English and wears and veil and so on. I don't know what the numbers are - maybe they are insignificant, but then again, the Home Office won't have a clue either, will it?


[ Parent ]

Re: .."voluntary apartheid"? (#6)

by archbold on Mon Oct 16, 2006 at 12:56:30 PM GMT

The conspiracy theories are always fun to read but sadly are often (as in this case) groundless and take the debate no further. The fact is we do have a growing crisis in this country, one that the government is doing little, if anything, to resolve. They talk about having a debate but all we hear is criticism. They say we are not saying all Muslims are extremists but whenever they seem to mention Muslims they talk about extremists. I have been to many debates on integration / multiculturalism in the last year, in the main the attendance have been predominately Muslims (contrary to popular belief Muslims do want to debate) and it generally means that Muslims tend to be debating with Muslims. Many within our society have difficulty engaging in a debate with Muslims (as they did with Afro Caribbeans). We can all try to rationalise why, maybe it is apathy or ignorance, but also it may be racism. Whatever the reason is, we are heading down a road of division and isolation and I fear the result will be a much worse than Brixton in the early eighties.


[ Parent ]

Re: .."voluntary apartheid"? (#7)

by Mark Wadsworth on Mon Oct 16, 2006 at 01:53:43 PM GMT

How do you mean "debate"? Debate what exactly?
They're not going to convert me and I am not going to be able to persuade them of the merits of atheism.

As long as people are nice to each other, that's the best you can hope for. I have very little to do with my Pakistani neighbours, apart from saying "hello" in the street, but to be honest, I have very little to do with my white neighbours either.


[ Parent ]

Re: .."voluntary apartheid"? (#11)

by Anonymous on Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 12:59:10 PM GMT

May be Mark your just a very sad individual who need to get to a life away from the computer.


[ Parent ]

Does Britain risk creating a system of "voluntary apartheid"? | 11 comments (11 topical)