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Top work by the Boris-huggers at the Evening Standard | 126 comments (126 topical)

Re: Top work (#45)

by Lorin on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 10:07:25 PM GMT

Well put yourself in the position of a gay person who has to endure countless offences from right wing biggots who say their going to hell and that "god" hates them. It's wonderful that people have the freedom to expres themself in this country I agree with you, however, this does mean that homophobic bigots are also free to express themselfs. Call me modern but I have never managed to understand what exactly is wrong with two male or female adults loving each other?


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Re: Top work (#56)

by Prbo on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 11:31:54 AM GMT

I agree with you that language used by opponents of practising homosexuality doesn't help at all.  I'd very much want to eliminate that too.  However, for religious reasons, I object to homosexual relationships.  Whilst you seem to be more understanding than others, many proponents of 'tolerance' in these matters show an enormous amount of intolerance and bigotry against people who disagree with their stance on homosexuality (see Northern Monkey below).  I find it rather curious that for people such as him, showing tolerance and accepting homosexual relationships seems to involve intolerance and bigotry against people who have genuine disagreements with it.

Anyway, I think we understand where we both stand on this by now...!


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Re: Top work (#60)

by NorthernMonkey on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 01:43:17 PM GMT

So should a tolerant person have been tolerant of the Apartheid system in South Africa then as well? Should we be tolerant of torture since a lot of people believe in it?


You have no understanding of what being tolerant is. People do not have to accept you condemning homosexuals because of something written in a poor novel from 2000 years ago.


You should accept everyone on their merits regardless of race, gender, sexuality etc. and if you don't, well that's intolerable.


Why don't you try and open your mind and understand that sexuality is something you're born with - it's not a disability or an illness or something to be looked down upon. Quite frankly, you just demonstrate your ignorance and backwards-thinking every time you post.


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Re: Top work (#61)

by Prbo on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 02:28:44 PM GMT

"You should accept everyone on their merits regardless of race, gender, sexuality etc. and if you don't, well that's intolerable."

So, if you consider someone intolerant, then you shouldn't tolerate them?  That's intolerance, isn't it?

"Quite frankly, you just demonstrate your ignorance and backwards-thinking every time you post."
Is this always how you treat people who disagree with you? 


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Re: Top work (#67)

by NorthernMonkey on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 08:42:14 PM GMT

So, if you consider someone intolerant, then you shouldn't tolerate them?  That's intolerance, isn't it?

Of course it is. There's no such thing as 'pure' tolerance. It's not whether somebody is completely tolerant - it's what you're tolerant of, which counts.

If you're tolerant of the BNP, racism, homophobia, torture and murder, then that's very different from tolerating people who are gay, black or Jewish.

Can you see the difference?


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Re: Top work (#70)

by Prbo on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:01:50 AM GMT

I certainly do.  So, who decides what's 'good' to tolerate, and what's not?  Do you have an objective method of measurement we can both agree on?  Interested to hear your thoughts on this.


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Re: Top work (#81)

by NorthernMonkey on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 07:54:05 PM GMT

Society generally dictates what should be tolerated and what shouldn't.

Society itself is somewhat complex and that doesn't necessarily mean that it's whatever the majority of people want to happen - sometimes the government can play a role in this too.

'Society' believes that Nazism was wrong, racism is wrong and more than ever before, that homophobia is wrong.


But as I've said in a comment further down, it is not logical to be homophobic because sexuality is not a choice, where are religious beliefs are and therefore it's perfectly acceptable to apply criticism where necessary to religion (for example, when people use religion to form their homophobia or sexism).


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Re: Top work (#94)

by Prbo on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:50:43 AM GMT

Thanks for clearing that up.  I agree that society in general defines what's tolerable or not.  However, I don't believe it's right to let the whims and fads of a particular time determine what is right or wrong.  I believe in an objective, absolute code of right and wrong which is set out in the Bible.  Unless you can persude me that it is wrong and untrue, then I'm afraid I'm going to stick with what I believe is true for all time and all people, rather than something which is likely to change in twenty years or so.

Sorry to disappoint you...


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Re: Top work (#98)

by NorthernMonkey on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 07:24:34 PM GMT

The decline of homophobia is not a whim or a fad - it is a trend. And equally, mistrust of religion is also a trend which will not be reversed. Those few that are Bible-believers tend to be quite old and are dying out as the years go on.


As mankind develops and becomes better educated, religion is becoming increasingly irrelevant and people are becoming far more sceptical about what religion has to say.


For example, few in this country believe the Creation story over evolution. And very few believe that God created the world in six days, rather than the Big Bang. Do you believe in these prbo?


Much of the Bible has already been proven wrong and untrue and if you wish to stay blind from this, then that's your choice, but it doesn't mean you're right.


Fortunately, most people today make judgements using their brains, their hearts and the consciences rather than following whatever a 2000 year old novel has to say.


[ Parent ]

Re: Top work (#99)

by Prbo on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:36:01 AM GMT

Now this really is going to have to stop as I'm going on holiday tomorrow.  However, I really can't let you get away with these comments.

"Those few that are Bible-believers tend to be quite old and are dying out as the years go on."

Do you have any evidence for this other than a general impression, and what you've read about in the Guardian?  The established church in this country is generally in decline - the non-established church is booming.  In Africa and Asia, churches are barely coping with the number of people who are coming to faith in Christ.  Missionaries from our church and others I know about have some amazing stories to tell - I think you'd be rather surprised.

When was the last time you went to church, out of interest?

For example, few in this country believe the Creation story over evolution.

True.  Doesn't make them right though.  I do believe in creationism over macroevolution.  Having had a look into the possibilities of a universe being created out of nothing, and the evidence for us having evolved rather than being created, I'd politely say that evolution is the fanciful position, given the frightening lack of evidence for it.

"Much of the Bible has already been proven wrong and untrue"

Could you give me some examples?  How much of the Bible have you read seriously, rather than reading what other people have said about it?  There's certainly difficult texts to understand, but could you point me to some parts which are wrong and untrue?  I'd be happy to debate them with you if you'd like.

"using their brains, their hearts and the consciences"
 
You'll be very pleased to know that in coming to faith in Jesus, I used all three.  Still do to this day, as a matter of fact.

I've heard the argument that 'religion will die as people become more advanced' many times.  So why has it not disappeared.  I'd ask you this question, Northern Monkey:  The Bible is all about a man who came down to earth over 2000 years ago, claimed to be God incarnate, and claimed to die for our wrongdoings to restore us to a relationship with God, so that when we die we won't be separated from him but have eternal life.  On the face of it, it's crazy and has nothing of interest to say to me, or anyone else in this day and age. 

So why is it that over a billion people on this planet believe this message, and follow what this man had to say?  Is it mass delusion?  Are they all crazy?  Or might there actually be something in what they believe?


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Re: Top work (#111)

by NorthernMonkey on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 06:36:57 PM GMT

No scrutiny Hugh?!

I think you'll find the Bible has been torn apart with scrutiny and criticism. The theory of evolution being perhaps the most significant.

Most of what the Bible has already been proven wrong, if a few individuals wish to deny the truth then that's up to them.


The fact is the Bible has not survived the 2000 years in tact - people are more unbelieving of the Bible than ever before, particularly as people are becoming better-educated.


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Re: Top work (#112)

by Prbo on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 06:47:12 PM GMT

Most of what the Bible has already been proven wrong

I'll repeat - could you provide some evidence, please?  If you don't answer, i'll assume it's because you haven't read the book yourself and are simply relying on what other people have said about it.

As for evolution, that's not the fundamental message of the bible.  The bible is about God coming to earth as Jesus, to die on a cross to save mankind from its wrongdoing. 

Do you believe this is true, or untrue?


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Re: Top work (#115)

by NorthernMonkey on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 06:57:34 PM GMT

I didn't live through the Nazi era prbo, that doesn't mean I can't say it happened. I'm certainly not going to waste my time reading an immoral text.

Do you believe this is true, or untrue?

Most likely, untrue.


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Re: Top work (#114)

by NorthernMonkey on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 06:54:15 PM GMT

Just take a look at your average church-attendee - generally old. Non-established church booming? If increasing attendance from 5% of the population to 5.5% of the population is 'booming', then yes you're right! Even then, the reason for this is because of the influx of religious Eastern Europeans.


I don't go to church Prbo - faith has little importance to me. Like 93% of the British population I find going to Church pointless.


"I do believe in creationism over macroevolution.  Having had a look into the possibilities of a universe being created out of nothing, and the evidence for us having evolved rather than being created, I'd politely say that evolution is the fanciful position, given the frightening lack of evidence for it"

My goodness prbo, I don't quite know where to begin with that gem! Because of course, there's absolutely tonnes of evidence supporting creationism isn't there!? There certainly is evidence to support evolution, if you choose to ignore this then that's your choice, but unfortunately it demostrates a lack of intelligence or rational thought.

"Much of the Bible has already been proven wrong and untrue" - Could you give me some examples? 

How about all of it?


I find it difficult to see how anyone can use their brain to support a religion, I think it tends to be the people who follow what they are told without questioning it who are the most religious.

I've heard the argument that 'religion will die as people become more advanced' many times.  So why has it not disappeared. 

It is disappearing! Religion will never die out completely - the Bible (and other religious texts) can still provide some good stories which can be retold for novelty purposes. But as mankind has become more advanced, mankind is rejecting religion more and more. Why do you think it tends to be the poorest and most under-developed countries (or in the case of the US, the poorest states) which are the most religious.

So why is it that over a billion people on this planet believe this message, and follow what this man had to say?  Is it mass delusion?  Are they all crazy?

Not crazy prbo, but simply doing what society has told them to do. If you're brought up in a culture to believe that the Bible is true and your parents force you to go to church, or you attend faith school, then it's no surprise that children become indocrinated in this faith. Most people though, as they become adults, grow out of this and are no longer quite so naive (in the same way that they no longer believe in Santa Claus).

People are often very insecure and clinging to some sort of hope in a higher being gives them comfort and strength - but it does not mean they are right. They are basing their judgement on turning a blind eye to the truth in the hope that there is something more after life ends. This is irrational rather than rational and I think you need to be a thoughtful, open-minded person to break out of this and find comfort and strength in life itself, rather than clinging on to something which simply isn't true.


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Re: Top work (#118)

by jkitleft on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:48:23 PM GMT

Prbo, I do sometimes think that people are unwilling to listen to the arguements of evolution. I accept I need to know more about the opposing side. Fine. But consider this. Look at gorillas, chimps etc. When looked at closely, certain features are indistinguishable. Why do we have the unfortunate, but necessary practice, of animal testing? Because many animals have similar DNA strands. Testing on these animals is indicative of what effect it may have on humans.

I will leave you all with the wise words, of a former US Senator, and sociologist, Daniel Patrick Moniyhan: "People are entitled to their own opinions, but they're not entitled to their own facts."


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Re: Top work (#123)

by dickwishart on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:16:05 PM GMT

You still haven't answered the question that prbo put to you, all you have said in reply are sound bites, if you cannot back up your argument perhaps you should close mouth.


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Re: Top work (#127)

by NorthernMonkey on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 04:22:35 PM GMT

I've answered every question comprehensively. Read the comment back again. It's prbo who won't answer mine, so perhaps you should 'shut mouth'.


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Re: Top work (#130)

by jkitleft on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 07:03:08 PM GMT

Prbo also mentions the work that missonaries do. That does not justify half the wrongs religion exports. Moreover, there are just as many secular philanthropists. Look at one of, if not the finest medical roganisation in the world, Medecins Sans Frontieres, founded by Bernard Kouchner (the exemplary French Foreign Minister, whatever you think of his interventionist policies), a secular Jewish atheist.


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Top work by the Boris-huggers at the Evening Standard | 126 comments (126 topical)
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